I believe all JWs think inside the box. Until you crawl outside the box and take a look around at the real world, you have no idea of how small and unrealistic your world really is. Anybody see the movie Nell? This is the true story of a young woman raised in backwoods of I think it was West Virginia. Anyway, when her mother died and she was discovered, Nell was totally unable to live in everyday society and she couldn't even speak understandably because her mother had a stroke that affected her speech. Nell learned twisted speech that was unintelligible to everyone else. A doctor finally picked up some clues and figured out what what Nell was trying to say. When the courts were trying to decide what to do with her, she had the doctor speak for her in court and I will never forget her words. She said, my world is small and I know small things. Her mother taught her to be scared of day, so Nell went out only at night so that she could not been seen by anyone. It took state help and about 7 years I believe to get her properly oriented for life as we know it. When I was a JW, I was raised in the box and stayed there for 49 years. My world was small and purposefully kept that way by the the WT society and I knew only small things that I taught in the congregation as an elder. Remember people used to be branded as heretics for saying the earth wasn't the center of the universe. Thinking inside the box is a bad way to live and a lot of the things taught in the JW box are about as reasonable as Nell being taught fear of the day-time. Fear works well inside the box and all garble we called the pure language seems to make sense.
THE SHOOTIST
JoinedPosts by THE SHOOTIST
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John 2:19, 20 and Naos
by IsaacHorwitz inthe best way for me to ask my question is to start out with a skit:.
jw: i agree that jesus is speaking of his body in john 2:19 when he calls it a temple (naos).
however, when the jews say that the temple was 46 years in the building, they use the word naos and are not refering to jesus body.
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THE SHOOTIST
First of all I would like to adress Senior Member with his request for my source of references. I really like this quaint little book called A Short History Of The Bible written in 1881 by Bronson C, Keefer.
Next I would like to address that fine research by Supreme One. First of all the sources I referred to in my statements did not seem to go into the same depth as yours but they basically said close to the same thing leading to the same conclusions. By the way, Theophilus of Antioch did NOT use the word APOSTLE but called John, as you said, a disciple. Just because the other gospels quote the same information in various ways does not make the subject any more valid by saying Jesus said this and meant that and the Jews said this but meant that.
For instance, we both mentioned Papias, but isn't it the truth that his works are lost. We have a quotation by Eusebius in Ecclestical History and we know only what Eusebius said he said? Let's consider what some consider Papias' referral to our present Gospel of Mark around 150 A.D. and let us remember this is the testimony as to the authenticity of Jesus' words as contained in it. Eusebius says that Papias said that John the presbyter said that Mark said that Peter said that Jesus said and this is the historical lineage of the Gospel of Mark. Do you get my drift?
Of Matthew, Eusebius said Papias said Matthiew composed his history in the Hebrew dialect and everyone translated it as he was able, but was Papias referring to our present Gospel of Matthew? Isn't our gospel in Greek? Jerome asserts the translation was uncertain. There was formerly another Gospel passing under the name of Matthew which was used by Christians. How do we know which one is correct? Nobody can tell. Don't scholars like Constantine Tischendorf and Davidson grant that Papias was not referring to the gospels of Matthew and Mark as we know them.
Some religious theologians assert in the most positive manner that Justin recognizes all four of the evangelists and that he quotes from the Memoirs of the Apostles, asserting this is the four gospels under a different name. Orthodoxy is doing this under a deperate ruse because in but two or three instances of nearly a hundred quotations made by Justin are they exactly the same as the New Testament Passages. They differ either in sense or construction showing Justin's book to be different from the Gospels. Justin says the Memoirs say that when Jesus went into the Jordon to be baptized a fire was kindled on the river. Ever read that in the Gospels? The Memoirs quoted by Justin says that the devil tempted Jesus when he was coming up out of the river. Find that one in the gospels.
Remember, we don't hear mention of ALL FOUR EVANGELIST till the year 200 A.D. with the books being circulated under their present names. Dr Wescott calls the first two centuries the dark age of Chrisian literature and its remains scant, as he put it, "A few letters of consolation and warning, two or three apologies addressed to a heathen, a controversy with a Jew, a vision, and a scanty gleaning of fragments of lost works, comprise all Christian literature up to the middle of the second century".
In conclusion I think that the Gospels were no more than oral tradition and the only thing considered as of divine authority and inspirations was the Old Testament as of 150 A.D. and the New Testament was not considered so till towards the close of the second century. The 3 men primarily responsible for laying the foundation of the canon, Iranaeus, Clement of Alexandria,and Tertullian had neither the ability nor the inclination to examine the genesis of documents surrounded with the apostolic halo. Their Polemic motives, their uncritical, inconsistent assertions, their lack of sure data, all these things detract from their testimony. Their decisions were made as a result of pious feeling, and theological speculations of the times. Their arguments show a weakness of perception and their world rocked with traditional ease. Their assertions show ignorance and exaggeration. Tertullian and Clement both believed the fable of the phoenix that renews its life every 500 years and Origen even defended the fable. Tertullian believed the hyena changed its sex and that the stag renewed its youth by eating poisonous snakes, that eclipses and comets were signs of God's anger and forerunners of national disasters, that volcanoes were the openings to hell, and I could go on and on about these men God used to give us the beginnings of the New Testament. That why my answer was that John 2 whatever is probably all bull crap anyway with no proof the conversation actually happened.
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I just found this site....THANK GOD!
by confused_101 inok long story short i was baptized at 17 (because i felt pressured into it), and i was df about 2yrs ago i believe (i'm 27 now).
i wasn't at the final meeting, or any meeting about my dfing.
i had an elder call me twice at work and tell me that there was meeting that night.
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THE SHOOTIST
I'm sorry you feel so lost and this is the typical aftermath of feelings of someone in your circumstances. Your're going to have replys from people about how much God loves you and find Jesus and all that jazz, but I believe the answer may lie in a different interpretation of God based on logical analysis. Is it resonable to assume that the current plight of mankind is based on the Biblical concept that a talking snake told a naked woman to eat a piece of fruit that would make her like God knowing good and bad and when she did that same God became angry according to Genesis 3 and God said that since they have become like us knowing good and bad they were to be cut off from the tree of life. So my analysis, what if they didn't know good or bad before eating the fruit some 6000 years ago, and by the way we have mammoths with spearheads in them dating back over l0,000 years, what the hell did they know and if you believe that horse crap then I have some ocean-front property to sell you in Arizona. God has to be bigger than that and the Jehovah of the Bible is a vicious, unloving God. A God that would avenge his anger with the death of all mankind on the above mentioned scenario, then require literally millions of animals to be slaughtered on alters to appease his anger, and the the gruesome sacrifice of his son because he got angry over the first human pair finding out what was good and bad. Then this awesome loving God leaves it up to just a few humans to get the message out to the rest of the world. What a God! If its so important why don't he just quit messing around and spell it out in the sky for all humans over the world to see so they can at least know the rules before they're killed for screwing up. Instead of doing something sensible, this God appoints his son as head of the church and that son lets the church, rape, pillage, and murder so much in his name that people of other religions think its a good thing to kill a christian. WHAT A GOD! You can probably sense by now my feeling about the Bible God. I have found great comfort in reasoning past this kind of God and I give strong consideration to the idea that the real God is not bound to any religion. Religion is a man-made system to control the masses. If religion can get you to think you're born in sin and you need a mediator,an elder, a faithful and discreet slave or any other type of religious go-between, they got you hooked and you've swallowed the bait, hook, line and sinker. GOD HAS TO BE BIGGER THAN RELIGION. LOOK IN YOU MIND AND YOUR HEART AND YOU WILL FIND HIM. THAT THE KIND OF GOD YOU CAN THANK!
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To Rebel or not to Rebel? that is the question!
by freedomlover ini am truly looking for your honesty on this issue...not that i think any of you have been dishonest - i just don't want the sugar coated version of pollyanna lines.. i have spoken about this subject privately with one of you - ;) - and also with my hubby.
however, i'm wondering if i'm in the minority here when i bring this subject up.
being raised a jw i had to be so straight for so long.
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THE SHOOTIST
REBELLION, against what and for what reason? We could show the JW'S how smart we are and start smoking, become a drunk, drug addict, get a STD, or use good sense and rebell against JW tyranny. I've had a lot of friends rebell against the society and earmark that with an unreasonable, self-indulgent, almost crazy courses of action. What rebellion means for me is the choice of a better, more meaningful life. For 49 years of my life I was a slave to the JW's and if you don't believe me, read my profile. What about our path can we look back on and say I did this or that and I have no regrets. Leaving the JW's as a course of rebellion is a path I can look back on with no regrets. Learning Martial arts and getting my black belt at 53 years old, no regrets. Helping over 20 persons feel good about leaving the JW religion, no regrets. Learning not to be judgemental of anyone over sexual preference, religion, or the lack there-of is a course of rebellion against the norm that I'm proud of. So if we are to be rebels, let us be rebels that can look in the mirror and like the person who's looking back.
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John 2:19, 20 and Naos
by IsaacHorwitz inthe best way for me to ask my question is to start out with a skit:.
jw: i agree that jesus is speaking of his body in john 2:19 when he calls it a temple (naos).
however, when the jews say that the temple was 46 years in the building, they use the word naos and are not refering to jesus body.
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THE SHOOTIST
My answer is quite different with the question, did Jesus really say those words? The gospel of John was not heard of till about the year 180 A.D., about a hundred years after John's death and it wasn't untill the close of the second century the book was even attributed to him, and then by the fathers of the church. That same gospel said that Bethsaida was in Galilee and there was no such town in that district. Bethsaida was on the east side of the sea of Tiberias and Galilee was on the west side. Since John was born in Bethsaida it seems probable that he would know the geographical location of his birthplace. John was also a Jew and yet he refers to Jews in the second and third persons in the gospel saying such things are their law, your law and calling the Jews children of the devil. Some scholars determine the work to be a forgery and the apostlic fathers such as Clement of Rome (97A.D.)never mention Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. Finally a christian Father Papias, who lived around 150 A.D. does mention a Gospel according to Mark. Of him Eusebius said that Papias was a man of limited comprehension and the tradition that he collected of Jesus were rather too fabulous. In 150 A.D. Justin Martyr made 314 quotes from the Old Testament where in two-thirds of the cases he mentions the book he was quoting, yet when making his so-called New Testament quotations, he never once mentioned the 4 gospels as we know them and yet he mentions the Gospel of Peter and the Acts of Pilate. The first writer to mention John's gospel is Theophilius of Antioch in 180 A.D. and says nothing of him being an apostle. The first mention of all four gospels is by Irenaeus about 200 A.D. and the early church fathers knew no more about the authenticity and authorship of the gospels than we do today. So in conclusion, what was meant in John 2:19,20 is anybody's guess and the true meaning of which has been lost for centuries.
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i need some advise
by bayrhino inwe'll were do i start i've surfed your board and i now at the point of breaking away from the jw organization .
for about 2 years now i've read and done some research and seen all the lies cover up read "crisis if conscience" ray franz and i got to the meeting and see all these people hundreds just going about not being open minded if wt tells these people the world is flat the thats what they'll believe and never question it.
we'll im 28 and been a jw all my life met my wife got married i have 2 wonderfull kids.
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THE SHOOTIST
To find the book, History of the Bible by Bronson Keefer, try The Book Tree, PO Box 724 Escondido, California 92033. If this doen't work leave me a message and i'll try another avenue of location.
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Please welcome THE SHOOTIST
by alamb in.
just wanted to introduce my friend the shootest.
he is new here and wanted to welcome him.. .
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THE SHOOTIST
Check out my profile, it takes too long to write all that history again, and yes I just love the Duke. Thanks for all the fine welcomes to the board. This posting stuff is somewhat new to me and I guess I've been standing back and watching how fast the rest of you can draw. Some of you folks are pretty quick and its a pleasure to watch you work.
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List What You Consider "Wrong" In The Organization
by minimus insome witnesses might not really believe that they don't have "the truth".
sure, they know about some of the past errors but they bury it because they feel everyone is imperfect and can make mistakes....but are these just simple "mistakes" or is the watchtower organization simply wrong?
what things can you think of that show that the watchtower has a "pattern" of never getting it right---even to this day??
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THE SHOOTIST
An unfaithful and indiscreet slave that hasn't made a correct call on prophecy for the last 125 plus years. If the light is getting brighter I'd like to know when we can expect to see it shine for the rest of us. When Rutherford said that his predicitons on 1925 had made an ass out of him, I'm a firm believer that a lot more ass making has been going on in this organiztion for a long, long time. I asked a witness the other day at work who was the failure, the slave receiving the new light or the God sending the light? So, please tell me not what they have been prophetically wrong about, but what they have been prophetically right about that was new light for the world in the last 125 years.
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World War I did not start during the last days
by jwfacts injehovah's witnesses place great emphasis on world war i proving that the last days started in 1914. what few realise is that world war one started prior to the start of the last days.
the war started in aug whereas the wts claims the last days started on october 2 1914. this means that wwi started during the gentile times and as such can not be claimed to be an indication of the last days.. i asked my pioneer school conductor about this and he claimed that satan started wwi in august as a smokescreen to divert peoples attention from jesus rulership talking place shortly afterwards.
this is an unsubstantiated excuse.
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THE SHOOTIST
Your pioneer school instructor is using the watchtower pat answer, let's blame in on Satan when they don't have a logical answer to their time-line statements. This is not the only religion that plays the same blame Satan game and he's always the right answer for a no answer situation. Prime examples: 587 date for destruction of Jerusalem by historians-Satan smoke-screen; Wooly mamaoths with spearheads in them dating back over 10,000 years when man was created 6000 years ago-Satan smoke screeen; the early Egyptian empire dating its start 3100 B.C., 500 or more years before the flood=Satan smoke screen: pine trees in Cal. and Nev. that are 4800 years old, 300 years older than the flood-Satans smoke screen; Herod who sought to kill the baby Jesus, historians record his death in 4 B.C., 2 years prior the birth of Jesus in 2 B.C.according to the Watchtower theology-satan smoke-screen. The Mormons are playing the same Satan smoke screen theory with the DNA of the American Indian proving no semitic blood lines thereby invalidating the Book of Mormom. If we believe all these things are some screens by Satan then we must be smoking some pretty good stuff and blowing a lot of smoke ourselves.
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i need some advise
by bayrhino inwe'll were do i start i've surfed your board and i now at the point of breaking away from the jw organization .
for about 2 years now i've read and done some research and seen all the lies cover up read "crisis if conscience" ray franz and i got to the meeting and see all these people hundreds just going about not being open minded if wt tells these people the world is flat the thats what they'll believe and never question it.
we'll im 28 and been a jw all my life met my wife got married i have 2 wonderfull kids.
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THE SHOOTIST
I was in your shoes over 5 years ago only I was a former elder, pioneer, P.O.,and overseer of a department in K.H. builds. I couldn't fathom some of the things I saw going on in the elder body supposedly under direction of holy spirit. I started asking questions and reading everything about 607, 1914, l925 etc. as well as Ray Franz's books, Gentile Times Reconsidered by Carl Josson and some Preterist literature dealing with the prophecies of Revelation being fulfilled with the destruction of the Jewish system in 70 C. E.. I'm not going list all the research I have done or it would take all night. After getting my eyes opened going to a meeting or book study became torture and I could not comment any more at these meetings. When I was told about the Watchtower U.N. involvement from 1991 to 2001 as an NGO this was when I no longer could keep my mouth shut. My wife and 2 teenage children left with me, however I lost all my friends and immediate family that have been witnesses for over 74 years. Some people sit on the side lines and keep quiet knowing the things you know to keep the peace. To win your wife and children may take a long time but if you keep a low profile and just ask your immediately family thought provoking questions that require research on their part to determine the answers, their research to prove you wrong may get the results you are after. I couldn't sit on the sidelines and I don't call myself THE SHOOTIST for no reason. Being a straight shooter has enabled be to help over 20 JW's to find freedom with no regrets. This was done by asking queestions and making them do research, a lot of it in their own JW literature. Some major help came from research done in a small book call A Short History of the Bible by Bronson C. Keefer Copyright 1881. The information will be quite the adventure of discovery. My advice, keep your cool and research. Knowledge is dynamite.